[jp_international]

For dys and weeks I've been debating the value of C.R.7 on this Man Utd side....To be honest its the difference between a legandary squad and a Man U team about 4-5 yrs ago.
Some argue attack is the greatest defense and this season seems to be no different as Ronaldo has spear- headed the attack already recording a season pb of 36 goals at a rate of just under 1 per match. And as a result Man Utd have conceded only 15 goals in 32 league matches? Coincidence? Maybe!!
Then you may say that England does not defend well, he also is Europe's leading scorer in UCL...tsk tsk..and he scored on Italy #2 side at the moment. Its true

Can I also add that goals has not been the main course of Ronaldo's season has he has already recorded 42 assists since joining the club....( would have been 60 if Mr. Rooney would convert jking ) but seriously.

I say all that to say this:

Rooney is very good but he is also English and so is Gerrard, Lampard and to some extinct Walcott...(do any of these guys have defenders asking for mercy) The English press support and hype their own, is their another league in which english ballers have as much hype...major league soccer is not a Major League.

Who dares to argue whose Manchester Utd real MVP is? Maybe a yr ago I would have agreed but I am so sure that this alien will prove my clain next game day

[Prongs]

Had to read it twice to understand the netspeak . BTW what is the point of the thread anyway ?

[jp_international]

From your picture, its obvious that you are a # 7 supporter...But the thread was to spark a debate on Ronaldo, Rooney.....Influence on the team

[moley]

Ronaldo is the core of our team at the moment think the Villa game showed it fantastically attacknig most things go through him inb that game everything did. As for the most important English player in the squad I would say Rio, he's just an amazing defender with a fair amount of skill on the ball to boot.

[randy420]

Like prongs, at first I had to read this a couple times before I completely grasped the point of this thread, but I feel that I have got it here, so now for the actual reply..

There's no doubt the value of Ronaldo to our team. Not only does he score a ton of goals, he also provides quite a few as well. However I still think that there is one downside to him, and that's the fact that a lot of times he'll have a teammate in a good position and he should pass it to them, but instead he either shoots from 20-25 yards out and wastes it, or he tries to be too selfish and beat a defender and ends up giving the ball away. I have noticed though that he ahs been doing this a lot less than he used to, but it's still annoying to see him just waste it like that.

In no way is it a coincidence that we've only conceded 15 goals while Ronaldo has scored 36. Our fantastic defensive record is down to van der Sar, and oure centre backs Rio and Vida. I don't really ever see Ronaldo back there doing all he can to ensure that the opposition doesn't score, so I don't see how you could make the claim that because he has scored so much that that's the reason why we've allowed so few.

I wouldn't say tha Walcott is only English "to some extent." From what I can tell Theo is 100% English, as Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are. I do agree that the English press does try to talk up their players to make them sound like world beaters, but we've seen from the international progress that it is simply not true. Lampard is very, very over-rated, and I personally think Gerrard is as well. Gerrard can do wonders against the bottom sides in the league, and some of the lesser teams in Europe but I can't ever really recall when he has really stepped up to produce something magical against a top top side. Sure he can play in loads of different positions, but I just think that he is only average as a footballer.

Rooney however does have loads of skill and talent, plus he's only 23 right now. I can't really say that Rooney isn't as skilled as Ronaldo, or that he is more skilled, because really they are different as footballers. I don't think it's fair to simply saw Rooney isn't as good as everyone says because he's been talked up by the English press. Rooney is a fantastic footballer and I thank the lord that he plays for us, rather than against us. While he might now always score goals, he is always a constant threat to score and oppostition defenders have to makr him very tightly to make sure he doesn't do something magical.

I dare to argue that Ronaldo isn't our "MVP." To me, our "MVP" is either Rio or Scholes. Rio is absolutely immense in defence and one of the best defenders in the world. Scholes just makes us tick. When he's in the side we always seem to perform a lot better than when he's not in. Our passing and our movement are just so much better, and much slicker with Scholesy in the team.

[GocartMozart]

while i'm not 100% on what you want me to debate, since you've loaded your post with lots of issues, but I'll try to take these in pieces

Originally Posted by jp_international

For dys and weeks I've been debating the value of C.R.7 on this Man Utd side....To be honest its the difference between a legandary squad and a Man U team about 4-5 yrs ago.

This is categorically untrue. If you had to compare the teams, the difference is not one player. If you were making the comparison, Ruud would equal Ronaldo, and you'd be bonkers to say that based on that fact we're better off with Ronaldo over Rooney. I'm assuming you're trying to argue that Ronaldo is more valuable than Rooney, but with that comparison the only thing you can conclude is that while your main scorers are in different places on the bitch, the true difference is in the style of play and the movement. Having strikers dropping back, Rooney and Tevez do, and then provide pockets of space for Ronaldo and Giggs to run into are things that were never done 5 years ago and it would not be possible without Rooney's vision and passing abilities. Simply put, While Giggs, Scholes and Beckham were the key to the assisting of goals then, the responsibility is now spread across the pitch, and is not anchored on two players. The movement was very verticle in nature while today I see a lot more lateral passing and interchange. You now have the passes coming in from more varieds points on the pitch and from a greater variety of players.

Originally Posted by jp_international

Some argue attack is the greatest defense and this season seems to be no different as Ronaldo has spear- headed the attack already recording a season pb of 36 goals at a rate of just under 1 per match. And as a result Man Utd have conceded only 15 goals in 32 league matches? Coincidence? Maybe!!

Let's be clear, YOU'RE arguing that the greatest defense is a great attack. I can, and have often argued that the best attack is a great defense. As you saw in 2004 when Rio was banned, and the period between 04 and 06 when we were looking for Vidic, our offense suffered because we were so worried about letting in goals, that we couldn't relax and let our attacking players, and in particular our midfielders focus on offense and perfecting our play. I'll add anoter cliche to this conversation. Championships are always won with defense. While Brazil might be the acception, 99% of all other teams have always had specatcular defenses. The same is true of United. This is undeniable, and the concept of Ronaldo having anything to do with our defense is absurd. The fact of the matter is that while the rest of his game is spectacular, he is an abismal defender and when he turns over the ball, he'd rather sit down and have himself a good cry, than get up and get on with it. God forbid he ever tracked back.

Another characteristic that is crucial to Rooney's success is his all action style and complete devotion to the team, on defense or offense.

Originally Posted by jp_international

Then you may say that England does not defend well, he also is Europe's leading scorer in UCL...tsk tsk..and he scored on Italy #2 side at the moment. Its true

I have no clue what you're on about here. This is absolute bollocks. Gerrard Pique also scored against Italy's second best team, yet you're not heralding him as Christ reborn. Let's get on with it.

Originally Posted by jp_international

Can I also add that goals has not been the main course of Ronaldo's season has he has already recorded 42 assists since joining the club....( would have been 60 if Mr. Rooney would convert jking ) but seriously.

THIS IS A MASSIVELY skewed statstic. MASSIVELY skewed. Ronaldo, particularly before the Villa game, has been a selfish prick in statistical terms. He had barely any assists for the season, with everything coming from Rooney and the midfield. To say he's been all about the assists this season is absurd. While he may be a better player this year, he provided thre times more assists last season.

Originally Posted by jp_international

I say all that to say this:

If you need to summarize a post, you should probably just go back and edit it from the get go and cut it down, thus keeping stubborn twats like myself from calling you out on your fairly false unfair comments.

Originally Posted by jp_international

Rooney is very good but he is also English and so is Gerrard, Lampard and to some extinct Walcott...(do any of these guys have defenders asking for mercy) The English press support and hype their own, is their another league in which english ballers have as much hype...major league soccer is not a Major League.

While I hate the British media machine and have often posted, and written about how absolute rubbish it is, you're categorically false in your generalization. Rooney is excellent and is one of the keys to this team. I won't comment on the other three, since that's a completely different topic. One thing that worries me is how you've stated an opinion, "British Media Overhypes Their Players" and then have leveraged that to say all British players are subpar. If you knew anything about footballing history you'll know that there are plenty of legends that have come from England and have played above the hype.

Where and when did the MLS become English. If anything the MLS gets more flack from the Brits than anyone else. Stating this only confuses the reader ad should not have been a point of conversation.

Originally Posted by jp_international

Who dares to argue whose Manchester Utd real MVP is? Maybe a yr ago I would have agreed but I am so sure that this alien will prove my clain next game day

I can't argue against you. This year, Ronaldo has been our most important player. For various reasons, and most them not mentioned in your disorganized post. He's been the man for us this year; that is true. However to say that Rooney is some how less of a player, or to say that he isn't absolutely vital to our success is ridiculous. Who dares say that?

[jp_international]

Rooney will make an excellent midfielder for me both attacking and defending but he is still labelled as a striker. Arguably for United his worth is shown and I argue thats because at United the skill level of the other players ( Nani, Tevez, Scholes, Ronaldo) are far greater than some of his international counterparts, where he is looked upon to score goals.

You may sit an argue with me that lots of England's failure came as a result of Rooney's injuries or that he was out of the side, but I honestly can not remember Wayne Rooney being as excellent or as superb for England since Eurp 2004 before he was injured. If you put any capable baller to play Rooney's role I am quite sure it would not be that difficult. Rooney is a striker why isnt he scoring goals for England then. Looking through the majority of Man Utd goals this season, Ronaldo has contributed in one way or another. You are saying he may not get the assist, you are saying he holds the ball too long, but when he does this and three men follow the rest of the team is free to roam. And if your striker does not have confidence, you will eventually decide to take it upon yourself to score the goals yourself, as you know you have the ability.

I am tired of people defending Wayne Rooney, he is only 23, most footballers are peakin at 20- 25 now. The days of Zidane are over. By 28 now you are either ridicule by your team or injured. ( Strikers/midfielders i refer to). In my opinion if Rooney wants to be classified as a Utd great he must go back to a strikers mentality. Too often the responsibilty falls on midfielders and defenders and substitutes ( Tevez) to get the 1st goal and we say we have a world class striker. No Please. World Class Player, World Class Midfielder, but not World Class STriker. We sent our last World Class Striker to Madrid a few years ago.

Utd We Stand Divided We Fall

[GocartMozart]

The fact that you use england as proof is absurd. They have so many problems outside of Wayne Rooney that to use that as evidence is a very tainted argument.

If you think Rooney is not worth a damn as a striker, I'm sorry if that's how you feel, you'll be at odds with about 95% of United fans. Rooney has been fantastic and his statistics are enough prove it and where the stats don't show up his performances speak volumes

What I find strange is how you think saying "Rooney is a great player" somehow takes away from Ronaldo's greatest. That is not the case. They have very different roles and neither can be particularly effective without the other.

Please don't spew this "Utd we stand, divided we fall" bullshit. I have no clue what that means and neither will it be my guiding principle towards which i base all of my opinions. I think blinding logic is more than appropriate.

[jp_international]

GocartMozart all I want to know is if you consider him as a GREAT STRIKER.

Thats my question.

Im sorry but someone wid a strike rate less than 0.5 can not be a Great Striker

[GocartMozart]

I'm not sure what you're on about .5 strike rate

all the facts are here: Rooney Is Too Good For England | Terrace Talk : The Official Blog of United Zone

his strike rate has always been above 10% and is higher after the last two games. You're off it.

btw outside of this year, Rooney has had a better strike rate than Ronaldo. Significantly higher strike rate. 16% relative to shots and 30% relative to shots on goal (which is an absurdly high stat). You're off it.