[KMS]

Originally Posted by Silas "Subpoena" Awaketh

Yes, we played a lot of free-flowing football during Ruud's last season! I mean the creative central midfield pair of Alan Smith and Darren Fletcher, Ryan Giggs on one flank, and z0mfg Ronaldo on the other was a sight to behold! Also, we had a one-eyed Paul Scholes. From the right we had John O'Shea providing pin-point crosses, and from the left it was Sylvestre bombarding forward! Who can forget the late off the bench contributions from Richardson! I mean, phew!

You are absolutely right, it was Ruud's slow game that pulled us back.

I mean, he then went to probably the most unstable clubs of all times, a new team, a new management, a new country and barely scored 35 goals while being the top scorer in the league in his first season and in the CL as well till the time Madrid were in it! Anyone can do that, isn't it? Real would've won the title without him anyways!

Yes, we were too reliant on him, always expected him to score (which he rarely did). Now, that is not the case. It is not one player scoring 40 goals while none of the other scored 20 now, is it? We were too predictable then, but now, see, no one know who'd score for us. That's so deceptive!

Heh.

Go and watch the games where Ruud played, whether that be in his first season or his final season here - well, not so much his first - and you'll see what I mean. It's nothing to do with Ruud's 'slow game', fact is he thrived on getting the ball as close to goal as possible and which meant others having to put it on a plate for him (for want of a better term, he was special at what he did).

It worked well at the time because we had Beckham, once he went things started to go downhill due to others not having the same ability as he did to create the sort of chances Ruud needed. But put Ruud in our side now, who is going to create chances for him? Ronaldo will almost always come inside instead of putting a cross in, same goes for Giggs these days as well as Nani, and he's hardly going to get on the end of a Scholsey through ball.

We play through teams now, it's a more technically blessed side who like to play little balls here and there and work their way through. Our forward line and team in general requires a better footballer, quite simply - taking nothing away from Ruud, he is/was the best goal-scorer around.

I wasn't having a go at him, just making the point that as he came to the end here, we started to suit a different style of play which has progressed into what it is now. Ruud and Huntelaar type players are great if you can provide them with the right sort of service as we did a few years back, but these days our game is a lot different.

It's a pointless discussion anyway, as it would only affect us if Huntelaar came in to be 1st/2nd choice, which won't be the case.

For those reasons, I'd prefer someone who could both fit in with how we play now and give us a different option. Saha can do that but he's never fit, which means we need to spend.

[GocartMozart]

I'm actually stunned at how poor of a post this was Silas. Your facts are shockingly off. Richardson starte 12 games sporatically across the year and only against lesser clubs. Evra was our left back as was Judas, but then again you failed to mention him, since you can't help but masturbate to his scouse loving image every hour on the hour. Fletcher played well for tha tfirst half of the year, but even he wasn't relied on as much as you're trying to paint it. Our midfield was not assured, that's for certain and would have been a better base to work from to make your point, but the fact is that in the second half, it was the same midfield, yet a far different style of play. Form was part of it, Louis Saha was part of it, our defense slowly began to solidify and that was part of it, but to ignore how different we played with and without Ruud is just bias, pure unbalanced bias.

As for Richardson, we all know his abilities and he was not a hinderance to a United side that had Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Ji-Sung Park in midfield. I'm fairly certain all of those players played on Sunday, but you might want to check the game log to be certain. I'm also pretty sure that the real reason that United played free flowing football one day, and piss poor static football the next was because Louis Saha decided to put on the boots. The only reason we had any chance that season down the stretch was because of Saha replacing Ruud and the subsequent partnership with Rooney.

You point to all these players as the hinderance to Ruud, when in fact they weren't replaced the following year. The only addition to the team was Michael Carrick, and yet the team played incredibly well once Ruud was booted out of the team. If your sarcasm would be believed then United would still be playing piss poor regardless of Ruud's presence, but the fact is that it was his exclusion and the allbeit temporary form of Louis Saha that made the difference. It's even more interesting that you point to Paul Scholes since his vision was actually perfect before December, a period of time when Ruud was constantly starting.

Now I won't hammer the legend, Ruud is brilliant and was then. I personally think the reason the team played worse with him on the pitch wasn't entirely his style, but also had to do with his off the pitch complaints about Ronaldo and the team chemistry. I think it was that his style didn't fit with Rooney as well as Saha. End of the day, United were a far better squad with Rooney and Louis Saha at the forefront than with Ruud. End of

[Silas "Subpoena" Awaketh]

We bought Evra in January, GM, and you know how he performed during his first 6 months! Heinze was off injured, in the game against Villarreal, I don't remember him playing in that season? Fletcher played well for the first half of the season? Where? Scholes was no more than average.

The only player I didn't mention was Neville, and he too came off an injury!

Originally Posted by GocartMozart

As for Richardson, we all know his abilities and he was not a hinderance to a United side that had Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Ji-Sung Park in midfield. I'm fairly certain all of those players played on Sunday, but you might want to check the game log to be certain.

Come on now, even a delusioned United fan wouldn't deny that both Giggs and Ronaldo played as retards that season, and the season before, and the season before. Apart from the winning run at the end of the season, which was halted by Sunderland at OT, there was nothing good to write about one any of these 4 players! Ofcourse all of these played this weekend against Bolton, but are they the same players as they were 2 years back? Is Ronaldo the same player? No, he's way better. With time, players mature. He has, Fletcher has, Rio has, Evra has, Vidic has, and so has Rooney. Although Giggs has surely gone further down, and not to mention that he's barely playing so that if we win the CL, he can have his record and we can say thank you and pack him off. How timely was Sir Bobby's record edited (one game being chalked off after 46 years)!


P.S - I can include "cunt-face", "while you were out sucking a cock" or phrases like these as well in my posts, for no reason, if that's what you want!

[GocartMozart]

Once again you've proven my points. Actually Giggs was brilliant those last 4 months of the season when Scholes was out. He was voted player of the year at United for a reason. FACT! Ronaldo scored a ton of goals. I don't need delusionment, when I have facts. Delusional really is an adjective that fits your masturbation-fest over Ruud, which has now been going on for over three years without end. He held us back, get over it. I hated to watch him fazed out, and I really did love him as a player, but he didn't fit. A sensible man would admit that, before he'd go around slagging every other player on the team as an excuse for Ruud's weaknesses. As for Fletcher, we both know he wasn't a main stay in the team, and to point to him as the reason we looked more static with Ruud is absurd. As for his performances, they were decent. I haven't forgotten a certain headed goal into the back left corner of the net

Quality job getting us off topic by the way. I doubt it was a purposeful ploy to flame your usual Judas and Ruud rag.

Personally, if I brought in a striker, he'd have to be good enough to start half of the games. I can't say that for most of that list for any of the reasonably priced strikers. Personally Frazier Campbell has earned the right to come back, but I think I'd like to see him loaned to a Premiership side for a season before considering him for a third striker. Manucho is just too unproven to be a third striker and he needs to come to the Premiership side before I believe he's worthy, but I'm not willing to let him get his feet wet on United's dime.

As for the expensive choices, Berbatov is about as brilliant as any of the others, but his age is my only real concern. All of those strikers are about the same cost, including Benzema who is my personal top choice. The lad is quick, agile, with a brilliant shot and is creative. I think he'd fit prefectly into this system. Is anyone else reminded of Torres in the way he plays? Huntelaar has a reputation, but I haven't seen enough of him to truly judge how he'd fit into this system. I know nothing about Fabiano. I've made my opinion on Santa Cruz known before and he wouldn't work. Dean Ashton is not good enough, end of.

[KMS]

Originally Posted by GocartMozart

Personally, if I brought in a striker, he'd have to be good enough to start half of the games. I can't say that for most of that list for any of the reasonably priced strikers. Personally Frazier Campbell has earned the right to come back, but I think I'd like to see him loaned to a Premiership side for a season before considering him for a third striker. Manucho is just too unproven to be a third striker and he needs to come to the Premiership side before I believe he's worthy, but I'm not willing to let him get his feet wet on United's dime.

As for the expensive choices, Berbatov is about as brilliant as any of the others, but his age is my only real concern. All of those strikers are about the same cost, including Benzema who is my personal top choice. The lad is quick, agile, with a brilliant shot and is creative. I think he'd fit prefectly into this system. Is anyone else reminded of Torres in the way he plays? Huntelaar has a reputation, but I haven't seen enough of him to truly judge how he'd fit into this system. I know nothing about Fabiano. I've made my opinion on Santa Cruz known before and he wouldn't work. Dean Ashton is not good enough, end of.

I'd agree with most of that.

I've serious reservations as to whether Campbell is up to United standard. He's young, quick and a decent finisher, but I've not been overly impressed by his all-round game and watching him against Watford at the weekend, his finishing wasn't up to Premiership standard either. By all means bring him back and have him as back-up, or loan him out to a side in the same division, but I don't see him being 3rd or 4th choice at all.

Benzema won't be coming, I'm fairly sure of that, at least not this summer anyway, but I actually think he'll be better than Torres in 2/3-years. His intelligence for a striker his age is amazing, the way he uses his strength, pace and body in general is very impressive, and he can score any type of goal - He's also very good as a lone striker (he plays that role most weeks at Lyon) as well which would fit very well into that 4-5-1/4-4-3 we sometimes use. It's unlikely we'll ever get him going by some of his comments and the fee Lyon would demand, but if there's one striker I could pick to join us this summer it would be him.

If you weren't a fan of the style when Ruud was in the side then I imagine you'd be against the signing of Huntelaar somewhat, but he scores goals so I wouldn't rule it out.

Berbatov is a top, top player, but do we want to pay £25m (maybe more) for a 27/28-year-old?

Santa Cruz has probably found his level now, he's a decent striker but I don't think he's United standard - He was also very injury prone in his time at Bayern.

Luis Fabiano is either a very good striker or a one season wonder, not worth the risk, in my opinion.

And as you said, Ashton simply isn't good enough.

There's a real shortage of top strikers who are available at decent prices these days, whoever we sign it'll probably be over the odds but I'll trust Fergie to pick the right one, he's usually very good when it comes to signing strikers.

[mark08]

well nugent has shown that while he was quality in the championship, the prem chances dont come along often and when they do u have to take them or else u quickly become forgotten!

it will be interesting to see if campbell gets the chance and whether he takes them.

utd linked wid fabiano as well, a descent player wid a quality goal scoring record and might get him at a reasonable price whereas berbs is gona get invovled in a bidding war, which could end up with silly money being paid!

[Dew]

Whoa.. cool down guys.

RVN was an excellent player, a United player, but I have to admit his style didn't allow United to play as freely as they do now. Ultimately his vast goalscoring records didn't convert into a lot of team success, which is ultimately more important. Even though Ronaldo scored a buckload of goals in the past couple of seasons, he's played in a more freestyle position and scored from all sorts positions and circumstances. He knows it and he admits how much his teammates help him.

Now I think we do need to look for a top striker who is a good finisher. Saha is class, but he's not reliable due to his injuries. My top choice would obviously be the French wonder that is Benzema, but it's unlikely we will get him this summer. Berbatov is a great player also, but he's a bit older than I'd like and he seems a bit sulky too. Obviously SAF has a lot of respect for him, but I'm unsure how Berbatov would react to warming the bench. He will also cost a hefty sum. Finally, Huntelaar, who I think could be a great prospect for United. He's a great finisher, great in the air and of a good age. But my concern is a lot of people who compare Huntelaar to Ruud. Does that necessarily mean we will revert back to the way we played when RVN was around? Personally I don't think so. I think with hindsight and proper guidance, as well as playing besides the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo he can learn to adopt to the United style of play. He will cost a lot less than Berbatov and will probably not mind coming off the bench until he's properly settled in.

I don't know about Roque Santa-Cruz. He's had a great season for Blackburn, but it's still only one season to judge him. Dean Ashton is not good enough for us.

[funkdoctorspock]

was campbell compared to nugent?

Nugent's error was picking Portsmouth over Sunderland. He had an absolute 0% chance of breaking into the starting lineup.

The England call up got to his head.

There are players that successfully make the transition from Championship football to the EPL with flying colours.

In the case of Campbell/Welbeck, they will need seasoning either out on loan or a major run in the Carling Cup. Obviously the latter isn't enough.

KMS, I am going to respectfully disagree with regards to top strikers at decent prices.

The problem which United has at the moment [not really a problem, but a philosophy which I completely agree with] is building a team around youth. I can't imagine a striker coming into the fold older than 26. So it is going to cost a bit to get this accomplished. A top striker with European experience and in the age bracket of 20-27 starts at 18+ million pounds. Can't say this is any different from the last 5-7 years.

As for Benzema. I firmly believe its a 50/50 chance United get him. The valuation of 45 million pounds is an absolute joke. It would be 30 million tops. The reason I say 50/50 is due to Arsenal's rumoured bid for Ben Afra. There's no way Lyon lets both of these talents go in the same year.

P.S. Ruud in the current system wouldn't work. His inability to interchange would stifle United's attack.

[RobsonLegend]

Originally Posted by funkdoctorspock

The problem which United has at the moment [not really a problem, but a philosophy which I completely agree with] is building a team around youth. I can't imagine a striker coming into the fold older than 26. So it is going to cost a bit to get this accomplished. A top striker with European experience and in the age bracket of 20-27 starts at 18+ million pounds. Can't say this is any different from the last 5-7 years.

Here's a thought regarding a youth policy. Now, what I'm about to say is very obviously only a short-term fix, and we'd still need to find someone young(er) as a long-term solution. However, so as not to get the club engaged in some sort of bidding war or end up paying well above what should be the actual value thanks to the current trend of skyrocketing fees, it may be a workable plan for now:

How about going for an older, already-established striker who has this much-lauded experience factor working in his favor? Someone like a Larsson last season. We wouldn't have to tinker too much with the existing first team, his experience would come in handy for the first teamers and younger players playing the same position, he'd be a viable threat coming off the bench if/when needed, and fitness shouldn't be an issue if he's primarily used off the bench. And hey, if he still has legs to play full matches, even better.

Candidate #1: Thierry Henry. Sacrilege to some to even suggest, maybe, but can anyone deny his ability? And look how he played for Barca against us in the CL semis. My gosh, if he played 180 minutes in those matches, I almost fear for what could've been the outcome.

Again..........short-term fix. And no, I'm not delusional.

[rawdon]

Originally Posted by RobsonLegend

Candidate #1: Thierry Henry. Sacrilege to some to even suggest, maybe, but can anyone deny his ability? And look how he played for Barca against us in the CL semis. My gosh, if he played 180 minutes in those matches, I almost fear for what could've been the outcome.

I'm sure that your brave suggestion will generate some healthy feedback. But let me be the first to applaud your willingness to think outside of the box.

If the person is going to be 3rd choice, while allowing others such as Manucho and Frazier the needed time to develop, and have the needed experience to be able to help carry the load from Tevez and Rooney, then you may be onto something here.

Also, since the player is already established, it is unlikely that Euro 2008 will cause a surge in asking price, since they are already a known quantity, unlike a younger player who will be talked up as the "next big thing".

Still would like Benzema or Huntelaar, but I don't think you are delusional.